Tuesday, August 11, 2009

A Baptist Knocking At My Door, Part 4

As promised in Part 3, I would answer the questions Matthew brought up in his lastest email to me. This is by far the most extensive response I have given him so far. Sorry for the length everyone! I have a hard time saying things simply.

Dear Matthew,

I apologize for my absence over the past few days, but I have been dealing with a medical issue and spending some quality time with my family while I am back home in Phoenix. Before we get back to our discussion, I wanted to thank you for sharing with me some personal information about your life. It is good for us to know one another on a personal level. I have B.A in Philosophy and a Masters in Secondary Education. You know already that I am working on a second masters in Theology. I enjoy watching baseball and football. I am a big NY Yankees and NY Giants fan. I also enjoy playing golf when time permits.

Okay...let's return to the Saints. Yes, Jesus did walk the earth and yes he did experience all things that we experience without sin, but that still does not take away from his glory if we ask our fellow humans, who were just like us, to pray for our intercession. The saints in heaven are in the presence of God perpetually. The saints worship God, but they also intercede for us if we request them to do so. Not sure what you meant when you said, "those saints are worshipping God and not interceding for him." The saints are in full communion with God since they are in heaven with him. Having others pray for us should be a good thing. It should not be despised or just thrown aside. It's essential that we ask Christ to pray for us directly in all that we desire (John 14:13-14). This is something that the Catholic Church encourages quite a bit during the highest form of worship and prayer - the Catholic Mass. The Mass is the central form of worship which is directed towards God and Jesus, not the saints. However, this does not mean we should not ask our fellow Christians to pray for us, especially those in heaven, who are in the ever presence of God and Jesus. Those who claim that our fellow Christians in heaven do not hear our prayers are narrow-minded. The Bible points out to us in numerous places that those in heaven (which includes the angels) pray with us and for us. Please see Psalm 103:20-21, 148:1-2, and Revelation 8:3-4.

Furthermore, you bring up the words - "dead saints" a few times in your latest response to me. I imagine you are referring to Deuteronomy 18:10-11 when God commands not to talk to the dead. However, Christ himself speaks to the dead! At the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30), Jesus speaks with both Moses and Elijah. Moses represents the Old Law and Elijah is the greatest of the prophets. They appear to attest to the authority of Christ. What God does not allow when speaking with the dead is the practices such as seances that want to contact spirits. God commands us not to contact the dead to gain information - we are to look to the prophets for that. There is clearly a difference between trying to contact the dead for personal gain and asking a fellow Christian who has passed to pray for us on God's behalf. In regards to your point about James 1:5-7 -- you are taking it out of context to fit your argument against me. It does state that we should ask God for wisdom if we lack it, but it says nothing about not praying to others who also have wisdom and have gone before us. You clearly misunderstand what the passage is saying. Also, Jesus does not say that we can't pray to the saints. Prayers that are offered as intercession for others is "good and pleasing to God" (1 Timothy 2:3). I am not sure what you are trying to prove when you say that Jesus gave us the Our Father and that he did not say pray to saints.

I am happy to hear that you have heard of Augustine. He is one of my favorite fathers of the church. His conversion story, Confessions, is a classic. Have you ever read it? His mother, Monica, who is also a canonized saint, prayed for his conversion. Finally after 25 YEARS (can you imagine?) of prayer from his mother, he converted. What other Early Church Fathers have you read or heard about? Please tell me. I love the Early Church Fathers.

Asking for the intercession of the saints is not something the Catholic Church just decided to make up one day. This practice of praying to the saints began in the Early Church. The catacombs throughout Europe, specifically in Rome, clearly show that the Early Christians asked the saints to pray for them. In the catacombs in Rome, there are writings on the walls asking for Paul and Peter to pray for them. The Early Church was persecuted and the Early Christians knowing that both Peter (crucified upside down) and Paul (beheaded) were martyred for the faith prayed for their intercession and guidance since they could be martyred as well.

In regards to Catholics worshipping religious pictures and statues of saints -- this claim has been made for hundreds of years. I still can't believe people bring this up. You think that Catholics are breaking the commandment in Exodus 20:4-5 and 32:31, right? First, it is correct to warn people about idolatry. From the early days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has boldly condemned the sin of idolatry, the early Church Fathers condemned it and so have many Church councils. Someone who calls a Catholic an idol worshipper simply because he or she has a statue of a saint or a picture of Jesus in his home, clearly is ignorant of what the Bible teaches about statues. Second, there are many scripture passages where God clearly commands that statues be made. When giving instructions on how the Ark of the Covenant was to be made, he speaks of the cherubim statues (Exodus 25:18-20). Again, David's plan for the temple which included statues of angels (1 Chronicles 28:18-19). Also, in Ezekiel 41:17-18, the prophet speaks of the images that were to be carved in the inner room and on the nave looking like cherubim. More so, in Numbers 21:8-9, we read about when Moses was told by God to make a statue of a fiery serpent (bronze serpent) and set it on a pole so whoever looks at it would be healed (they were bitten by a plague of serpents for punishment). This passage clearly shows that the statues were not just religious decorations, but could be used within a ritual.

So why do so many faithful and practicing Catholics have statues, paintings and other religious devices in their homes or on their front porch (I imagine you saw that in Steubenville on your mission trip)? Simply: Catholics use statues and religious images to depict or recall the person. By looking at pictures of the saints or Jesus, it helps Catholics to remember that person in a more visual way. Think about this Matthew. As human beings, we come to know the world through our five senses. Having a statue or a picture amplifies us to use our sense of touch and sight more. Catholics DO NOT worship these pictures or statues. We do not bow down to them as the Greeks and Romans did with their gods. They are merely there to help us pray more and to remember more what that person was like here on earth. I have a statue of Saint Joseph, the foster father of Jesus, in my living room. I ask St. Joseph to pray for me so I can be a great role model for other men since he is such a great role model for men. Imagine his vocation, he was to care and protect Mary and Jesus! What a job! I do not worship that statue, but it helps me to remember who he was when he lived on this earth.

Let's put it another way - do you have pictures of your family and friends either in your home, wallet, or your dorm room/apartment at school? Why do you have these pictures? Is it to remember who they are and how important they are to you?? Do you worship these "images"? Do you bow down to these "images"?

Just as you use pictures of your family members, those still alive and those who are deceased, to remember them when you are away from them, so do Catholics use the pictures and statues to remind them of our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us. Catholics also use statues and religious art as tools for teaching. Throughout the history of the Church, there have been periods of illiteracy (illiterate = those who cannot read). The Church would use the religious art to often explain the Biblical stories to the faithful. In Art History, Stain Glass Windows were known as the "Bible of the Poor." [Make sure you click on that link for stain glass windows]. I imagine that your community has images of Jesus and other biblical pictures they use for Sunday school. Catholics also use statues to remember certain people and events, similar to Protestant communities who have three-dimensional nativity scenes during Christmas.

Well...I think that is a good place to stop for now. I have given you a lot to read and think about regarding the saints. Remember, this is just one topic. Wait till we get to Scripture and Tradition, The Last Things, The Blessed Mother, The Sacraments, the Papacy and so much more. If you want to wait and get back to me after you return from your missionary work in Nicaragua on August 21, that is okay too. If you want to write me before you go too, that is fine as well.

You are in my prayers. Pray for me.

In Christ,
Tom


Please pray for Matthew's conversion!

3 comments:

Anonymous said...

You are doing God's work with Matthew. I will try to remember to pray a decade of the Rosary for him tonight and lift him up to our King and Queen Who both love him very much.

You are also a model of charity, something I am much in need of. I am probably not a good person to do apologetics with these folks as I tend to get easily irritated by them.

God bless you, brother!

EAHARA

Greg said...

Tom,
I came across your web site as I was Googling "Baptists Knocking on doors". You are apparently the front runner on this topic since yours was the first link to pop up (and I'm glad it did). I'm not a big fan of door to door evangelism but I can't quite defend my animosity towards the concept, so I keep on researching. Which is what found me on your Blog.

I guess I'm technically a Baptist. I grew up Lutheran, spent a couple years as a Presbyterian, and now find myself in a Southern Baptist church. I have found theology differences both across denomination lines as well as inside church buildings. I wish it wasn't so, but I'm finding it to be inevitable. And the Protestant/Catholic theological differences seem to be so drastic and intimidating that I don't dare try and tackle them, but I am very interested in your take on a couple of key issues. Hopefully you don't mind me using you, and this forum, to get a better understanding of your beliefs.

I guess my biggest question is, at the end of your blog entries you are asking for prayer for Matthew's conversion. Is this prayer request for his conversion to a true faith in Christ, or for his conversion to a faith in the Catholic Church's theology? And can there be a separation between the two?

I believe there are true believers of Christ in the Baptist church as well as the Catholic church. And I also believe there are non-believers ("unsaved", if you will) in both organizations as well. I'm curious to get your take on this concept because I think it is foundational in trying to bridge any theological gaps, or at least reach a mutual understanding and acceptance.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment and I look forward to reading more about your faith.

Perna said...

Greg,

Thanks for commenting. I am not sure how if Matthew and I will continue our dialogue or not. I have not heard from him in some time.

It sounds like you have ran the course on different faith traditions. May I suggest you read David Currie's - Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, Steve Ray's - Crossing the Tiber, and Scott Hahn's - Rome Sweet Home. They may give you some insight from 3 converts to the Catholic Church. The first two were Baptist and the Hahn was a Presbyterian.

I don't mind you using this blog to better understand the Catholic Church. In regards to your question about praying for Matthew. I am praying that he does convert to the Catholic Church. There is no Salvation outside of the Church (Lumen Gentium, Vatican II document) declares this quite clearly. However, there are elements of the Catholic Church within other Protestant faiths and non-Christian faiths that can potentially save a person.

There is most certainly a difference between the Catholic faith and let's say, the Baptist faith or Lutheran faith. They are all Christians, but there many differences. Keep in mind that until Martin Luther broke off from the Church in the 16th century, the Christian Church for 1500 years was the Catholic Church.

I hope we can chat ourselves if you like.

God Bless!